Monday, August 28, 2006

Spiritual Thought 8: Is Freewill Possible If God Knows the Future?

I've come across this discussion several times lately. I've heard people say that if God knows the future, then there couldn't be any such thing as free will. If He already knows what we're going to choose before we choose it, and bases His plan for our lives accordingly, then we didn't really have a choice at all. However, this logic is faulty, and here's why:

Consider a similar example:
I know my 9-year-old daughter very well. I know that she doesn't like gravy on her meat or mashed potatoes and she doesn't like dressing on her salads. She eats them both dry. Don't ask me why; it's strange, I know. (But it's more healthy, so I don't push it.) Still, whenever we have salad or mashed potatoes, I ask, "Do you want gravy?" or "Do you want some dressing?" It's on the table and it's available to her if she chooses to have it. I know, though, that she will say, "No, thanks." So, if she chooses against the dressing or the gravy, does that mean she wasn't excersizing free will, just because I knew in advance what she was going to do? Certainly, not! She always has the option of choosing differently than she normally does. If she, one day, said, "Yes, I think I'll try some Ranch dressing today," would I say, "Oh. Actually, you can't have any. I was just joking."? Of course, not. I would pass her the dressing with my compliments.

Knowledge does not equal choice. It never does. Can you come up with an example of when knowing something equals choosing something? I can't. They are two completely different mental functions. Even in extreme cases, they are different. If you are standing next to a bomb that is about to explode, you have a choice: run or stay put. Just because we know most people would run, doesn't mean that a choice wasn't made in that instant.

So, knowing that my daughter will turn down the dressing, does that mean I'm choosing not to allow her to have it? No. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean He's making our choices for us. Even by making a plan in accordance with our choices, He still is allowing us free will. I still have a wide variety of salad dressing choices in my frig. If she ever changes her mind, I'm prepared.

Here's another example: Let's say you are a new student looking for a college to attend. Both Yale and Harvard accept you into their schools. You have a choice to make. Let's say that God knows that you are going to choose Harvard. He also knows that there is a wonderful person there that you are going to meet and eventually marry. So, does that mean that you don't have a choice? Does that mean that if you chose Yale, that they'd say, "Oh, whoops! The letter we sent you had a typo. We meant to say, 'You're NOT accepted.' Sorry." No. So, what if you chose Yale and ended up going to Yale? Did you thwart God's plan? No. He knew you'd choose Yale, in that case, and there's probably a special person waiting for you there, instead. Just because our choices don't derail God's plan doesn't mean that we're not really choosing. Neither does it mean that God is choosing for us.

I think, possibly, one reason we don't like the idea of God's foreknowledge is because we feel trapped into a certain path--like if someone knows what we're going to choose, our choices don't really matter. This is a limited way of thinking--learned through our dependence on our linear existence. It is uncomfortable and confusing to try to think of anyone, even God, living outside of linear time. It's time, though, to stop trying to limit God. If you're going to understand anything about Him, you have to allow for His biggness--that He is not held within our limits.

I think we also don't like the idea that our poor choices rest solely on our own shoulders. We kindof like the idea that God planned for us to make the mistakes we're making, thus eliminating any personal responsibility. We think, "If God is to blame for my poor choices, then He couldn't punish me for them." Two problems here: 1, God's purpose is not to punish, but to save. 2, Freewill is possible; therefore, our choices are ours alone. No one else can be blamed for them. It's time we own up to our own failures. It's the only way we will ever learn to see our lives from a right perspective, and it's the first step towards finding forgiveness, peace and hope.

10 comments:

Unknown said...

This argument is so fundamentally wrong that I want to scream. It is this type of rationalizing mentality that make non-believers think that religion is a joke. The analogy is wrong. Its wrong, wrong, wrong. You are not like God because you are accostumed to you daughter not wanting salad dressing. All knowing and omnipotent does not equal pretty sure she will do the same thing.

The arguement here is that freewill cannot truely exist when your future is known. You cannot read a book and will the ending to change.

If god is all-knowing, he knows if you went to Yale before you made the descision, that is what all-knowing means. If you are all-knowing, you know everything. A God would not need a back-up girl at the other university because he KNOWS where you will go. HE KNOWS EVERYTHING and you therefore have no free will.

S. E. Thomas said...

Jesse,
First of all, let me thank you for logging on and participating in this discussion.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Of course, I wasn't suggesting that I'm like God or that there isn't a higher level of knowledge where God is concerned. In my analogy, I had only a pretty good idea, while God would know everything. You are certainly right about that; however, I was using an analogy, knowing that analogies are never %100 perfect. I hope you will forgive me for that unavoidable discrepancy.

Still, I persist in my belief that knowledge and choice are two separate mental functions. I gave my analogies to prove that point alone (not to suggest God is on our level).

Do you have an example that might show otherwise?

Anonymous said...

To Susan and Jesse (if you're still interested):

There are, of course, more than two other distinct possibilities to consider:

First, is the fact that we (humans) don't actually know the extent to which "all knowing" means anything. By definition, we can't. [I'm actually taking a moment myself to go, "Wow." It's truly mind-boggling.] Well, let me continue with words, even though the concept is certainly beyond my tangible understanding. What does all knowing mean? Most would agree that all knowing means to know everything that CAN be known. Since I certainly don't know what God CAN know, I am in NO position to tell you what God CANNOT know either. So, we would all just stop arguing about it right now, if we were wise. :) But I get some sense of enjoyment out of being foolish, so I'll move on to my next example, which Jesse alluded to.

If God knows (present tense) that I went (past tense) to Yale (and I have been there, actually), then there are two distinct and separable time domains: one time is God's time and the other is my time, which I happen to share with the two of you...most of the time. :) The very interesting thing about this possibility is that current theories in physics (string theory, D-branes, quantum entanglement, antiparticle interactions, etc.) predict, suggest, or agree with the hypothesis that the universe consists of at least two independent time dimensions...what they call orthogonal in mathematical terms. So, God in His time could view us in our time, at any "time" and have no effect on us at all, if He wanted to. Seeing and acting are two distinct and separable activities.

Of course, I would be the first to admit that math and physics are far from proving any of this; in fact, the Scientific Method actually does not allow proofs on reality at all. It is a philosophical impossibility of logic if we restrict ourselves completely and consistently to science, math, and philosophy alone. It's a good thing that even most theoretical physicists do not hold themselves to that highest and impossible standard of proof. We simply "believe" the things we witness often enough; that's just the religious-sounding way of saying that an experiment reproducing the same results often enough builds statistical confidence that the same thing will happen the next time I try it. Funny how religion and science are actually so very very similar, isn't it?

Cheers, one and all, and thanking for the stimulating discussion.

-Eric

Anonymous said...

If god is ALL knowing (everything that is, was, and that shall come to be) by that deffinition, and i know there are other deffinitions, how can we possibly have free will? Is it possible to have free will if god know everything? I think yes. Here's the big but: for or all we know God could have a time machine or a magickal (pagan spelling) crystal ball to see the future. For all we know many religions could be a prank of some time travling teen from the future. But hey debating the existance of God wouldnt be on topic with this forum. We're just talking about the possibility or inpossibility of God being omnipotent AND us having free will.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if anyone's reading this now, but I just thought I might throw a little word in here.

What Eric has just said is very wise. We are by nature physical beings attempting to bring a non-physical being into our pitiful minds' understanding. I am definitely not one to attempt to fathom the ways of the creator, but will attempt to try to make it clearer for all who may stumble on this.

Everything in modern science shows that time is alterable. It is able to be manipulated in different ways just like putty in our hands. In theory, if we were able to either travel near a black hole our time passing would slow down considerably compared to earth time. This theaory was proven when returning astronauts'watches were a few miliseconds ahead of perfectly synchronized watches back home.

Sounds like "Back To The Future" huh?

But take this fact in stride with the fact that, since God created time, he must be above time."(Genesis 1: 14-19)

Constantine used the term the "Eternal Now." It states that, in theory, God is always looking at every second in time as "now." He could change any moment in time as "now", yet not be changing what He knows in the future from the past, because He is in both places. I know that's a lot to wrap your brain around.

We cannot put God in the box of time. Yet, we cannot truly understand God fully outside this box, for it is the only thing we know. It's the same as if you tried to explain the color orange to a man born blind.

However, the problem with our logic so far appears when we bring in the fact that God is not just a casual outside observer. He's actively involved in our lives. Let me put something forward here that might be very controversial.

God the Father knows the future. That's been sstated and shown how it could work with free will still existing. But there's a mediator between our two planes, namely, the Holy Spirit.


OK, I think, to paraphrase Ted Dekker, that there may be a nature of God that does not know the future. The Holy Spirit. This is not the Holy Spirit's job however. It's job is to comfort us, empower us, lead us in the right direction, and give us hope. It is one with God, yet separate. It is the "Helper" promised us by Jesus Christ. It is the being that keeps us in contact with the Big Man, made possible through J.C.

Alright, put down your torches and pitchforks. Like I said, this is only a theory. If anyone disagrees, fine. I might be wrong. But as C.S. Lewis said in "Mere Christianity"", we all(christians) agree that Jesus died for us. These theories are simply guides to help us understand better. If it doesn't work, drop it.

I highly reccomend all concerned read "Blink", by Ted Dekker. It is a fictional tale that covers the subject extensively.

Your brother in Christ,

Derek

Anonymous said...

Hey All:

Thanks for chiming in on this discussion. I enjoying different perspectives and thinking about it all. In the end, of course, we're probably all merely a little bit right in our understanding of what "really" is...looking through the glass darkly.

And to Cort, I appreciated the magickal spelling. We are all pagans at least once in our lifetimes. :)

Cheers!

-Eric

S. E. Thomas said...

Derek,
Your comment was very insightful and very much appreciated. As far as your "controversial" statement, obviously, I have no problem with controversy on this site. In fact, I welcome it, so don't start looking for pitchforks and torches yet. You'll see none from me.

Not sure I agree with Dekker... I just can't seem to understand how such an understanding of the Holy Spirit would fit with Scripture or would even work practically. Of course, there's a lot I don't expect to understand about God until I see Him face to face.

I certainly enjoyed your examples about time and how you described God as being outside of it. This is an idea I accept fully and was glad you described it so well. Thanks again!

S. E. Thomas said...

Cort, thanks so much for your comment. Hmmm... traveling teen... could that explain why every time I turn around my house is a mess--even though I just cleaned it? Hmmm...

Hey, if you are interested in discussing origins or anything else, I'd certainly be open to your ideas. Just go to the sidebar on my blog and click, "Pick A Discussion Topic", and make a comment including your topic idea/discussion question.

Anonymous said...

you seem to be misunderstanding all knowing upon creating you god has made every molecule work exactaly as he wills your brain configuration and everything you will ever encounter compels you to choose what you choose it is an impossibility to do otherwise since even your thought and decisions were already chosen by the way god made you

S. E. Thomas said...

Thank you for your point. I'm sorry it took a while for me to post it. (Vacation and all.)

If God made each of our molecules and created them to work a certain way--which I believe He did--it may be logical to assume that He controls our every thought and decision, as you suggest. However, what if He didn't want to control us in that way? What if He wanted us to make our own choices? Would He--an all-powerful being--be capable of such a thing? I believe He is.

While there is a deffinite argument against this theory, I still believe the answer lies in understanding the character of God--not so much in understanding the concept of "foreknowledge vs. choice".

The Bible shows again and again how men's choices bring about certain ends. There are many who, though they don't believe in the Bible per se, believe that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing Creator who simply spun the world into existence and then stepped back and now does nothing. While I don't believe God is in any way inactive, couldn't it be that there is a middle ground here?